Message 2108, May 5, 2001
Hi DocBoink, What an interesting cross-breed you have bought! It might be an HGU-22 shell
with one-piece ramshorn visor and APH-6 type headphones with the external adjustment cups.
On the other hand it could also be an APH-6 shell without the butterfly bayonet cutouts.
The chin strap looks very HGU-22 like but I have never seen that nape strap adjustment
system before.
The number of external screws suggest that it is equipped with a strap suspension assembly
rather than the standard leather-covered foam pads. This and the plastic cover over the
communications plug are common features with the Danish HGU-2A/P-D.
I wonder why it has the external headphone strings used on the HGU-26 when it also has the
APH-6 type discs. The usual post for securing the string is also missing.
It would be very interesting to hear more about this helmet when you have received it.
Cheers, Bluelight
Message 2109, May 5, 2001
Bluelight, Thanks for this post and your interesting comments on the
"cross-breed". It is indeed an interesting helmet. Aside from the points you
raised and the unposed, but obvious, questions that arise from evidence of these features,
the rear strap adjustment mechanism looks very APH-7ish to me. Another reason why I felt
this would be a worthwhile acquisition. I'll take some images of it and present a detailed
examination's results after its arrival.
Must be an ex-Luftwaffe set-up of some sort. Perhaps German Naval Air? We shall see.
Cheers, Doctor Concussion P. "Crash-worthy" Boiiiiiiink, PhC(rash)
Message 2112, May 5, 2001
Yes it is German. I bought my HGU 26/P from Djabbah and everything he sells is
German,mostly Luftwaffe i think.(He lives near Dortmund in Germany)
Greets,
Message 2113, May 5, 2001
BINGO! Doc, you stirred my memory and made it come up with the answer to my "Now,
where did I see this contraption before?" On Holger Braun's website there is a nice
picture of a helmet just like yours from the German Naval Air Arm.
Cheers, Bluelight
Message 2114, May 5, 2001
Thanks for that additional input on Frank's helmet and mask set-up, Tim. For anyone
interested in the subject of our discussion (Luftwaffe "HGU-2A/P/G"), I have
attached images of this set-up, showing left, right profile views, front view and rear
view.
Cheers, DocBoink
HGU-2A/P(G) with gold-plated dark visor. ©Chris Carey
Message 2115, May 5, 2001
(((Sounds of resounding "AHA!" echoing in background))). Excellent memory
recall, Bluelight. Thanks for this. I'll visit and check it out. I had this strange
feeling that it might be German Naval Air. Looks like my intuitive powers have been
heretofore undervalued (by myself, heh-heh). This is the part of this hobby that I like
best--the sleuthing and resulting discoveries that abound after a number of us get focused
on something.
Thanks again for this additional information, Bluelight!
Cheers, DocBoink
Message 2130, May 6, 2001
Hi All, Have seen this type of helmet also in the Netherlands about 15 years ago. A number
of them came from Germany and were sold as surplus. When you check out the Mart aviation
page, see there restauration projects pic. Visible are also a number of these helmets (at
least shells). Could be used for parts maybe?
Bye HUD.
Message 2137, May 6, 2001
Hi Hud, Thanks for this. '15 years ago' would place it at about mid to late 80s or so.
Good information. I'll dial up the AM site and take a look. Single blade straight Sierra
bayonets is also significant for time frame of use, as is the MS22001 mask (assuming that
this set is properly and correctly paired).
Cheers, DocBoink
Message 2141, May 6, 2001
Hi DocBoink, I think they are older than that. German Naval Air Arm F-104s were regular
visitors to Karup AB in the beginning of the 1980s, and right now I am looking at one of
my own photos of a GNAA RF-104G taken May 12th, 1981. It has a Gueneau 316 helmet sitting
on the windscreen.
Cheers, Bluelight
Message 2142, May 6, 2001
Yes, you are probably right on that score. I wasn't pinning it down accurately
enough--just sort of "ball-parking" it in my mind. The helmet is probably early
80s, all right. Perhaps even late 70s. I'll know more after it gets here, of course.
Interesting that a gold anti-nuke flash visor was used as a "second" lens.
Germany didn't have a nuclear strike mission; I wonder if the gold visor was just used as
an extreme sun filter by the Marinefliegers or whether it was obtained from US Navy stocks
of the APH-6 type helmet types that were originally fitted with this visor for use in
(USN) A3J and RA5 nuclear strike missions? Bird strike prophylaxis would certainly make
sense (even in Starfighters), but I am puzzled by the use of the distinctive nuke visor on
this helmet. Hmmmm.
Cheers, DocBoink
Message 2143, May 6, 2001
Hi DocBoink, Germany did indeed have a nuclear strike mission so your golden visor is
genuine. One of many factors causing the large number of German F-104 crashes back in the
1960s was the fact that due to a strong sense of commitment to NATO the German Air Force
had F-104s on nuclear alert instead of on the flight line for training missions in spite
of the fact that they had a very low in-commission rate. In some periods pilots had as few
as 2-3 flying hours per month.
Speaking of the F-104, Robert Calvert comes to mind. The song "Catch a Falling
Starfighter" is not fair to the German Air Force. Once they analysed their problems
properly and took the right precautions they were more safe than other F-104 users. The
Germans ended up with a final accident rate of 1.59 per 10,000 hours. The Canadian was
1.96!
Also, during the first ten years of service, Germany lost 10% of their total number of
F-104s. Comparable figures for Belgium, Canada and Italy are 11%, 23% and 24%
respectively. My guess is that the Germans crashes were more visible because they had so
many F-104s - 917 a/c all in all.
Cheers, Bluelight
Message 2147, May 6, 2001
Hi DocBoink, My small grey ones are not up to speed these days, I think it's about time
that I stop sniffing glue. It finally dawned on me that the German Naval Air Arm did not
have a nuclear mission. They conducted anti-shipping attacks with Kormoran missiles and
maritime recce missions. They used to operate those F-104s as if they were 450 kts missile
boats.
The German Air Force had the nuclear mission in their four fighter-bomber wings JBG31,
JBG32, JBG33 and JBG34. In addition to that they also had two recce wings (AKG51 and
AKG52) and two air defence wings (JG71 and JG74) operating the F-104.
One more item that finally got unstuck from my sticky grey mass. I think that Flash
Aviation had a Luftwaffe HGU-2A/P(G) helmet on their website until recently. It was white
with a light blue visor housing with some kind of figures on. The details elude me. But it
was definitely Luftwaffe. So, your helmet is probably Luftwaffe rather than Marineflieger.
Cheers, Bluelight
Message 2148, May 6, 2001
Aha....more details surface in the cerebral miasma of convoluted reckoning (how's that for
turning a phrase>--probably the Bernard Shaw ancestry). Funny you should mention stuck
valves in the sticky grey mass, as I have seemed to experience similar recall problems
ever since I volunteered for that 'pre-frontal lobotomy' experiment in Air Force basic
training, many moons ago...
It would indeed be logical that the nuke flash visor indicates Luftwaffe use, rather than
Marineflieger use. By the way, Denmark flew Starfighters also, I believe. Did Danish
Starfighter pilots use twin visor set-ups (for either bird strike or other applications)?
Cheers, Doc("three-cells-short-of-a-full-lobe")Boink
