HGU-7/P helmet

Message 3397,  Jul 11, 2001
The $50 price on the HGU-7/P seems fair. Here's some other idle ramblings on the HGU-7/P:
While the HGU-7/P was used on all kinds of other aircraft. Every HGU-7/P I have seen offered for sale has been a FAC helmet.
In 1988, I was in a surplus store in Savannah GA and they had a big round container full of HGU-7/Ps in various stages of disrepair. I picked up one good one and a couple for comms parts. They were all MAC marked (Military Airlift Command).
The MBU-5/P TO, updated to 1986 still has the HGU-7/P illustrated in the TO.
The TO on fixed filter Nuclear flash goggles (M-1944 goggles with gold lens) has a photo of the HGU-7/P equipped with the goggles.
The Intended use section of the HGU-7/P military specification does not list FAC or observation aircraft.
The Type designation sheet for the HGU-7/P which has some details on the helmet doesn't mention observation aircraft and I don't think FAC existed (1959) when the initial request for nomenclature was made.
There is at least one earlier version of the HGU-7/P and possibly 2 that most of us (myself included) have never seen. I have photos of both, but I can only positively ID one as an HGU-7/P. I am working on the other.
Cheers, FIGMO

Message 3394, Jul 11, 2001
Members, lately there has been some discussion about the use of the HGU-7 in FAC aircraft during the involvement in SEA. Since my FY is after this period I only know what has been published in books and magazines. In volume V Monograph 7 of the USAF Southeast Asia Series I saw two pictures of FAC pilots and their helmets.
On page 34 we see pilot James Gibler in front of his O-2 with what looks like a HGU-33 type of helmet (absolutely not a 7 model!)
On page 35 we see Philip Smotherman beside s his O-2 also with a helmet that looks like HGU-33 type. Unfortunately I don't have a flatbed scanner so I am not able to scan. [both helmets are most likely HGU-2A/P, Bluelight remark]
Shaba

Message 3341, Jul 4, 2001
Hi John, Thank VERY much for this information on the HGU-7/P helmet. This mirrors much the same sort of feedback I have been receiving from other former FACs. Again, I am grateful to your and your colleagues for the helpful background on use of the (disliked) HGU-7/P helmet.
Best wishes, DocBoink

Message 3339, Jul 3, 2001
Hi Chris, Just FYI, I got a hold of the guy that I got my HGU-7/P from, he flew O-2 Cessnas (not O-1's) in Nam, said he was issued the helmet but never wore it as it was almost universally disliked and most guys he flew with tossed them and used the mask as a spare for there HGU-2A's. Jetstuff

Message 3333, Jul 3, 2001
Greetings folks, Since the exchanges of yesterday, I have had some further luck in contacting various FAC organisations (there are at least 10 that I have found so far) with my questions about Captain Judge and the use of the HGU-7/P as a FAC helmet in Vietnam. I've even had two positive ID returns on the "Captain W.A. Judge, USAF" who was the FAC driver that owned the HGU-7/P and A-13 helmets we have been discussing. Turns out Captain Judge was indeed a FAC driver and one of his associates recalls using "a white helmet" early in 1968, but later our helmets were khaki in color". The person this came from did two tours as a FAC driver in Vietnam (amazing, really, considering how incredibly dangerous all FAC flight ops were).
This is all just tentative and more definitive information will be forthcoming as soon as I receive it. However, it is starting to look as if the HGU-7/P helmet--if it ever saw service in SEA--was only used briefly, early on, and only until other helmets came into use. Again, this is all just preliminary and nothing confirmed until more FACs respond to my queries. I am also going to get in touch with Wallace Judge and ask him about his use of the HGU-7/P helmet (since it belonged to him), but I do not have an email address for him--only a street address and phone number--so this may take a while.
Cheers, DocBoink

Message 3329, Jul 2, 2001
Hi FIGMO, Yes, we had some of these HGU-7/P's when I first started flying, about 1969. I was in WC-135 and WC-130 aircraft. You are right, we ditched these things and wore headsets with harnesses for the masks. Around the mid to late 70's the rest of the crew went to sweep on masks, a la the airlines. I had a HGU-26/P since I flew on B-52's and HC-130H aircraft too. We also used to carry parachutes on our refueling missions (??). Then someone figured out that to get out of the WC-135 in flight, you needed the aircraft in a straight and level flight attitude. This usually meant that you had power and control. Kind of a Catch 22. Why bailout if you had control of the aircraft? If it was uncontrolled, you couldn't get out anyway! Hmmm...
I liked flying the BUFF, because I had a way out! A little crowded but that makes for tight and friendly crews!
I will check with one of my old commanders. He was a FAC early on in Nam. He flew OV-2's, the pusher-puller Cessna.
Gato

Message 3325, Jul 1, 2001
There is a FAC organization. I will try to do a search on Yahoo. So many times, late at night, I turn up something and then can't find it again.
We need to consider an item is what is was intended for, until someone can prove otherwise. In the case of the HGU-7/P, every example of this helmet ever offered on E-Bay has been listed as a FAC Helmet. I have a fairly extensive library of references books including several detailing the FAC mission. In the photos I have seen, FACs are wearing conventional flight helmets (I would guess a ballistic helmet as most appear to be OD green). Another point, the FAC mission wasn't really clearly defined or better term, refined until the mid 1960s. In one of the books I have on the development of the A-10 Warthog, there is an interesting discussion of Close Air Support (CAS) as defined in Southeast Asia where the Counter-insurgency (COIN) mission was the order of the day. The system of using O-1D observation aircraft to locate targets that were then hit by fighter-bombers (F-100s) , carrying bombs, was replaced by the FAC and mission specific aircraft such as the A-1(in ones of it's reincarnations) and the OV-10. Actually, no one wanted to spend money on the FAC program as Southeast Asia was considered an exception to the military doctrine of the day. CAS was supposed to be provided by helicopters (Air Cav).
That said, I think it is important that we consider the numbers. Every day in Southeast Asia, bombers and close air support aircraft took off and joined up with fighter escorts for their assigned targets. Most of these aircraft were refueled inflight, both going and coming from their targets. The KC-97 and later KC-135 tanker crews used the older style helmets (non ejection seat equipped aircraft). Supplies were routed into SEA at such a rate that Saigon was the busiest airport in the world during the late 1960s. Cargo aircraft were literally all over the sky. Yet every HGU-7/P, purpose built for Cargo aircrew, was used by a FAC? A FAC that had some other alternatives available. A FAC that didn't want his picture taken.
I am interested in detailing the use of any flight helmet and if the HGU-7/P can be shown to have been used by FACs, I'll write it up that way. But I need some evidence.
Cheers, FIGMO.

Message 3323, Jul 1, 2001
Hi Figmo, Unusual that we are both up and on the air simultaneously, I guess. I well know how you feel about the FAC vs HGU-7P helmet issue, of course, and I have myself no evidence to either agree or disagree with the basic premises either way. I too, would like to see (emphasis, emphasis)some hard evidence in the form of a cockpit photo of a FAC driver wearing this set, which would certainly help nail a few pegs into the subject's coffin! Do you know of a FAC driver website somewhere? Until there is some tangible proof, one way or another, skepticism is still the best course to pursue, naturally.
Cheers, DocBoink

Message 3322, Jul 1, 2001
I am very interested in seeing any photo of a US militray FAC flying the HGU-7/P. I am also interested in hearing from anyone who knows of a FAC that might have flown an HGU-7/P helmet in this manner. Bad news for those who want to call this helmet a FAC helmet: According to USAF LIfe Support records, the HGU-7/P was basically a bump helmet issued to C-141 and other cargo crews flying into SEA during the Vietnam War. USAF ASD reports contain a photo of the HGU-7/P being worn by a C-141 pilot with a caption indicating the helmet was uncomfortable and not widely used. The FAC mission is a lot sexier than flying cargo. Which probably explains why EVERY HGU-7/P auctioned on E-Bay has been listed as a FAC Helmet. Sorry to be so skeptical and I will be happy to rethink the whole issue. Just some photographic evidence or other stuff to the contrary.
Cheers, FIGMO

Message 3321, Jul 1, 2001
Hi Steve, Nope to all questions. I haven't checked with the FAC drivers assn, but if you have their website, it certainly would be a great idea to do so in order to further research this particular circumstance (and the infamous "Unending Story" about HGU-7Ps and FACs).
You'll notice that my HGU-7P set-up is also identical to that shown on page 30 of JAFH, so this must have been a standard set-up--as shown by your specimen, my own, and Alan Wise's example (taken from where?--USAFM, possibly?).
I do not have any photos of Capt. Judge in a FAC cockpit, unfortunately, but if we can find out more about this individual, it would be a good starting point to make some subsequent determinations. The FAC drivers website (if there is such a thing) would be the logical next step.
Cheers, DocBoink
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 2:44 PM
Anyone check with the FAC Drivers association to see if Capt Judge was a FAC?
I also have just about the exact rig as the helmet on page 30 and also an
HGU-7/P with the the mask shown on page 29. The MBU-5/P TOs cover the mask
used on the HGU-7/P. Are there any photos of Capt Judge wearing the HGU-7/P?
Figmo

Message 3312, Jun 30, 2001
Hi Group, Things seem pretty slow on the Flightgear Forum today, so I thought I'd post a few images of two recent acquisitions. A week ago "Milcollec" on eBay auctioned off a set of items described as a "lot of FAC gear" formerly belonging to a Vietnam pilot (named Capt. W.A. Judge). No information was provided about the aircraft types Capt. Judge flew, although being a FAC pilot, he was presumably operating either 0-1, OV-10 type smaller aircraft and not the "fast FAC" F100 types. This is further substantiated by the two helmets that were included in this grouping, a grey leather USAF A-13, and a white plastic HGU-7/P. Before the old bugaboo about the HGU-7/P's use or non-use in FAC ops arises for the umpteenth time, the facts in this case are that this particular HGU-7/P helmet was definitely used in a small FAC aircraft by this particular pilot (Capt. Judge), as was his A-13 helmet.
The HGU-7/P helmet came with an MBU-5/P specially fitted for use with the HGU-7/P (identical arrangement to the specimen shown in Wise & Breuninger book--JAFH) and the A-13 helmet, fitted with the H-75/AIC earphone system and U-93/AIC connector, was used with the MS22001 shown. The MS 22001mask, interestingly enough, is dated 1955, and it was fitted with the standard rubber demand exhalation valve (not the pressure-demand exhalation valve); it furthermore did not have inhalation one-way check valves fitted (mic used in this mask is a standard M-32 with PJ-292 connector that interfaced with aircraft system through the A-13 pigtail cord).
The helmets and masks are in excellent condition and I was happy to find a specimen of the interesting A-13 helmet that was not priced in the $400 range (as some have been over the past year, as this helmet's interest value increases among collectors). The other items that came with this lot include two sets of Vietnam jungle fatigues in excellent condition, worn by Captain Judge and still emblazoned with his subdued embroidered name tag, wings, and rank insignia; additional, a complete late issue USAAF C-1 survival vest contained personal and issue survival gear for the Vietnam theatre of operations. I was surprised to see this C-1 USAAF vest used by a USAF pilot in Vietnam FAC ops, but apparently Captain Judge preferred this and used it on his flights.
I have attached photos of the two helmet and mask sets for the benefit of anyone interested. The HGU-7/P is interesting because of the controversy that it has provoked as a FAC helmet, while the A-13 is a very interesting relic of the USAAF to USAF transitional period (it was used well into the 60s, apparently, and an earlier version was apparently light brown leather, fitted with the HS-38 type communications earphone set--this one is gray leather and has the later H-75/AIC communications headset in it).
Cheers to all on the forum, DocBoink
03312 USAF HGU-7P helmet left front oblique_tn.jpg (13594 bytes)03312 USAF HGU-7P helmet front view_tn.jpg (12887 bytes)03312 USAF HGU-7P helmet right front oblique_tn.jpg (14035 bytes)
HGU-7/P actually used by a FAC
Click on thumbnails to see larger pictures
© DocBoink

Message 2997, Jun 17, 2001
Hi Rich, As Pogo Possum would have stated it, back in the 50s: "Precisalzactly!" That appears to be the gen-u-ine true story on the so-called HGU-7/P "FAC helmet", and it does indeed underscore the insidious manner in which a falsity, if state repeatedly and emphatically enough, gets written into stone.
This same matter you reference with regard to Jim Garcia and the FAC legend, is identical to that concerning the HGU-20/P that Trey maintains on his "X-Files" web page. We have already long been aware of similar faulty data and foibles derived from the JAFH book. A pithy subject, no less....and one that does indeed tend to "pith" some people off.....(urkkk). I can see myself saying that I know a former OV-1 FAC flyer who used to wear an HGU-7/P while 'Bird-Dogging' in country. When asked about this, he would have mentioned that he had gotten the idea from some book he had read about flight helmets, back in the States, that a relative had sent him in a care package..... (If we overlook the fact that "the book" was published long after the VN War was over with, this might have been an actually funny circumstance....grin)
Cheers, Doc("You've gotta be kidney, right?")Boink

Message 2995, Jun 17, 2001
This proves that if you put information out there enough times, it becomes fact. Similar to the HGU-7/P. S Norris correct me if I am wrong, but this helmet was not intended for FAC use; it was for cargo aircraft use. This notion seems to stem from a Chad Lebeau catalog where he calls the HGU-7/P a FAC helmet. After asking him about this it seems that THIS factoid came from a picture (that he showed to me) in a Japanese-language book showing a South VN student pilot sitting in a O-1 with an HGU-7/P on his noggin. Then Jim Garcia starts calling the thing a FAC helmet in his catalogs, and the rest is history. I have never seen a USAF FAC in VN wear anything other than an HGU-2/A with a boom mic.   Any info to the contrary out there?
Rich

Message 1710:
There are some other surprises when comparing items and dates. I am currently  tracking down the early HGU-7/P which was made of fiberglass and plastic and may have been the same shell we see on the BPH and Canadian DH-411. If you look at some XB-70 Escape Capsule test photos, you may be looking at the original HGU-7.
Cheers, FIGMO